Curse

Relambrien · Aug 23, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

These players work on the assumption that, like them, you want to be able to beat the mission as painlessly and as quickly as possible. As such, asking for builds and demanding changes is a way of weeding out the idiots.

Let's say you're doing...oh, Gate of Madness, and you get a W/Mo in the group. You ask him to ping his bar, and he gives you crap like Mending without bringing Wild Blow. Well this instantly tells you two things: 1) This guy doesn't have a clue about the mission since he isn't bringing Wild Blow, and 2) This guy is bad at the game because he thinks Mending is a good enough skill to bring. Thus, from the build, you can discern that the player is bad and/or clueless, and that there are better people to find.

Of course, there always is the chance that he is just clueless, and by asking him to change his build you can see if he's a complete idiot. If he goes along with it, then he'll cooperate. He might not be a liability, good. If he demands reasoning as to why, it becomes clear that the player is stubborn and probably not cooperative or a team player. Granted, you can get through almost any mission with one or two uncooperative people.

However, if you find someone with a cookie-cutter build, it instantly tells you that this person either 1) is willing to listen and therefore is more likely to cooperate with the group and/or 2) has some knowledge of the game to know that certain skills work well together or for this mission.

upier · Aug 23, 2007, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by brian78wa

This is why I dont pug. Idiots thinking that they have the only build that works. If youre at the end mission obviously your build worked well enough to get you there. If you dont like that persons build YOU leave the group not them.

And I've said it before:
Party leader = the man.
His party = his shit.
You don't like it = you leave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bokken

To you know-it-alls: Please be quiet and play your character and allow me to play mine as I see fit.
I am NOT here to please you.
My build works great

Your build might be superb - but that doesn't mean it works for the party. A Defensive Anthem paragon is lovely - but how about if the party is running a heavy melee team?
A build is only as good as it fits into the team build.

So obviously I have no problems taking or giving advice on skills. I will speak my mind if I see players taking skills that are worthless (worthless as in: 1. worthless in that area 2. worthless because of other team members builds). I will also explain why I feel that way. AND I pretty much expect to be taken seriously - just because I will only comment on stuff that I actually KNOW! I won't demand that players go out and buy 8 new skills - but will try to make the build work with whatever skills they have.

Of course there is the problem that some of the players giving advice are sometimes complete morons. But then again - once YOU know a great deal about the game, you will be able to separate idiots from people giving good advice. And that's where the Kick/Leave button comes into play. OR if you're feeling nice - explain to them why they are wrong. BUT reacting by pulling out your virtual penis solves nothing. And that seems to be your problem.

Iuris · Aug 23, 2007, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Personally, I'm torn on the issue.

On one hand, everyone has the right to play their character however they like. You think you don't need an elite? Fine with me, in theory.

But then, I also know that 2 out of three PUGs I enter have serious trouble because of the players who don't shoulder their share of the burden. Or simply refuse to play in a certain way.

Just the other day, I arrive at Gyala hatchery to complete my title track, and when I already have a full hero henchman party, I notice some guy looking for a group. So I say to myself, why not, some company would be nice. Except that I told the guy that I intended to avoid the turtles and clear the way first (and got something sounding like an OK), and just when I'm on the other side of the hill at the start, the group's health bars start to move - he just went to the turtles, no matter what. We wipe. Attempt two, I explain to him to stay to the right - no, he cuts straight to the turtles. So I left. And got a looooong tirade of abuse regarding my sexual non-habits since I left them...

In the end, forming a PUG is a negotiation. Who takes what and how the mission will get done is part of the negotiation. In the end - if you are unwilling to accept the agreed upon decisions (including who is leader), noone has the right to force you to agree. But noone has the duty to accept you into the group, either.

Wolf2581 · Aug 23, 2007, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

If you are playing with Heroes/Henchmen, then no one is criticizing your build! Win-Win.

I am certainly not implying that Guild Wars is a single-player game, but it is not purely a team game either. I just do not agree with that explanation for issues people have with others in the game.

stueyman2099 · Aug 23, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

The 'use skill x instead of skill y' mentality really reminds me of the days when I was a hardcore PvPer. I almost hate to say it, but that is exactly how the best players in the game operate.

Relambrien · Aug 23, 2007, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

The 'use skill x instead of skill y' mentality really reminds me of the days when I was a hardcore PvPer. I almost hate to say it, but that is exactly how the best players in the game operate.

Well actually, it's more like the best players don't need "Use skill x instead of skill y," because they all know skill x is better than skill y in the first place.

Bryant Again · Aug 23, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

I will "pick apart your build" because I want what's best for my team. It's not about you or me, it's about us. If you're too selfish to accept this, then please don't join my pugs.

longhornrob · Aug 23, 2007, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I will "pick apart your build" because I want what's best for my team. It's not about you or me, it's about us. If you're too selfish to accept this, then please don't join my pugs.

So earlier today I had an encounter in AB that went something like this:

me: could you ping your build real quick?
ele: ping
me: is mark of rodgort necessary? you already have immolate/searing flames
ele: yes, it helps set others on fire also
me: ... well, that may be true, but in that case you should pack fireball or firestorm.
ele: what? firestorm is so noob. you're a noob. i'm outta here. *leaves group*

Was that you, Bokken?

Bryant Again · Aug 23, 2007, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by longhornrob

So earlier today I had an encounter in AB that went something like this:

me: could you ping your build real quick?
ele: ping
me: is mark of rodgort necessary? you already have immolate/searing flames
ele: yes, it helps set others on fire also
me: ... well, that may be true, but in that case you should pack fireball or firestorm.
ele: what? firestorm is so noob. you're a noob. i'm outta here. *leaves group*

Was that you, Bokken?

At least he left.

zwei2stein · Aug 23, 2007, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Commander Ryker

I absolutely despise being told what build/skills to bring and in the days before we could ping the build in chat, I would say ok and then not change a damn thing. But, there has been the rare occasion that I've used a suggested skill to avoid b.s. and found that I liked it a lot. Since pinging, I can't lie about it anymore, so I will give it a try. If I hate it, I'll say so and go back to what I'm comfortable with. No muss no fuss.

Wow. What an a--h--- thing to do.

F'ng griefers.

YunSooJin · Aug 23, 2007, 07:19 AM // 07:19

so don't cry when I kick you..

k?

baz777 · Aug 23, 2007, 07:21 AM // 07:21

I completed NF with my Ele and Mes, and then went through Factions and Prophecies with them entirely with Hero/Hench. It’s not that I’m antisocial, just suits my playing time.

I’ll listen to proposed skill changes and if I deem them necessary I will comply, but explain to the team if I disagree and the reasons why.

I also may comment on someone’s build with regards to constructive recommendations. If you do it nicely and explain the reasons why then I find most people are prepared to listen.

I once found Koss with Mending and Healing Breeze equipped. I kicked him for a whole week, he didn’t do it again!

Yanman.be · Aug 23, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Why do you feel you have the right to ignore whatever the party leader says?

tmakinen · Aug 23, 2007, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Well, there are four different possibilities:

If both the leader of the group and you know what you're doing, there won't be any fighting over skills.

If you know what you're doing but the leader doesn't and won't listen to reason, you should leave. Why board a sinking ship?

If the leader know's what s/he's doing but you don't, you'll either follow his/her instructions or refuse and get kicked.

If neither of you know what you're doing, no amount of griefing will make the situation any better

Tijger · Aug 23, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by stueyman2099

The 'use skill x instead of skill y' mentality really reminds me of the days when I was a hardcore PvPer. I almost hate to say it, but that is exactly how the best players in the game operate.

You cant compare high end PvP with PvE in that way, while in PvP a team set up will actually require certain skills in PvE things are almost never that clear cut, there are always multiple builds possible to archieve similar results.
I've played the final mission in Prophecies without Winter as well, which everyone considers a must, and did it just as easily as with Winter.

Many PvE 'wisdoms' are quite often the result of people reading something on a forum and considering that the ultimate without keeping an open mind or trusting that players might have come up with something that will work as well.

I've never asked anyone to ping their build, if someone is crap and we get wiped, well, so be it, seems to me thats the only way to learn how to play the game.

Navaros · Aug 23, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

In my view PUGs that actually bother checking builds are the very few competent PUGs that exist.

Usually, PUG players are so bad that they cannot succeed with Heroes/Henchies even though doing so is extremely easy if one understands the game --- which is why they are in a PUG in the first place. Therefore most of the time PUG players do not bother checking anyone's build simply because the PUG leader is not a good player, does not understand the game, and doesn't know what a good or bad build is if he sees it pinged. So he doesn't bother asking to see builds merely because he's a bad player.

Therefore, if you in a PUG and someone asks to see your build, be thankful that you are possibly in one of the very few competent PUGs out there. Be thankful the good players asking to see your build are actually bothering to PUG with you when it would be much easier and much faster for them to make a much better party out of Heroes and/or Henchmen instead of PUGing with you.

NeHoMaR · Aug 23, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bokken

I'm curious. When we are in the same group, why do you feel that you have the right to pick apart my build and ask me to (or worse, DEMAND that I) make changes?

And I ask you: Why do you feel that you have the right to play in my team with a useless build? or worse, DEMAND me I must increase the possibility of fail quest/mission/pvp because your build?

around · Aug 23, 2007, 07:40 AM // 07:40

PvP is what PVE would be like if it were balanced. The builds that work in PvP usually will work in PvE.

A11Eur0 · Aug 23, 2007, 07:47 AM // 07:47

I can imagine this is the monk I saw yesterday with 3 divine favor spells on his bar without any divine favor attribute, along with resurrect AND rebirth at the same time.

Get over it. If your build sucks, people are going to tell you. If you get alot of people telling you your build sucks, then I guess you best realize it sucks.

Vamis Threen · Aug 23, 2007, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Next time, just bring cautery signet like the guy wanted you to.